| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Michael
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Crappy movies by great directors |
 |
|
I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they are
are. Mean Streets had no purpose. It was a bunch of guys going around doing
nothing. The Duel was a chase film like The Hitchhiker without any
interesting character development. And Bad Taste, well, that really lived up
to it's title. Then of course, these guys make some excellent movies later
on. That they would do so was not obvious to me at the time. The only
exception I can think of, is Hitchcock, who seems to have started out with a
bang in silent movies and just kept going, although he later on occasionally
made a turkey or two as well.
Mike |
|
| |
|
 Back to top |
Richard Schultz
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
In article <1ego74hvf40fg6gb8r3rdj66ii1a9a235m@4ax.com>, Magnus, Robot Fighter <Me@key.com> wrote:
: exception to what? Are you saying the only director you can think of
: that made great films right out of the gate is Hitchcock???
Except that Hitchcock didn't make "great films right out of the gate" either.
I've never seen "The Pleasure Garden" (although I'd like to), but I get
the impression that neither it nor "The Mountain Eagle" are works of
genius. And one can argue what "right out of the gate" means as well.
It's not as if Hitchcock just picked up a camera and started making movies.
-----
Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
There's something I must tell you, there's something I must say:
The only really perfect love is one that gets away. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Tom Sutpen
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
On Jul 15, 2:34 am, "Michael" <michaelwy...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi, well, I guess Hitchcock started so early that he could learn as the
industry evolved. (his turkey started coming when he turned to his insane
10-minute shoot ideas etc)
|
*****
He made a few bad ones early on ('Waltzes from Vienna', anyone?), but
your point is well taken. Any time Hitchcock constructed a film around
some formal gimmick that caught his fancy ('Rope', 'Lifeboat'), the
results were usually apalling.
| Quote: | I do not share your evaluation of The Duel,
however. I did not like it at all. That's all. I am not saying that the rest
of Speilberg's stuff isn't excellent, mind you. I just thought that
particular film was extremely boring. We didn't learn anything about the bad
guy. In The Hitcher, which is something like that film we at least have
Rutgher Hauer playing the bad guy.
|
*****
Not learning about the bad guy . . . keeping him faceless (if not
armless) . . . is meant to make the situation more disturbing for the
viewer. 'Duel' is an okay movie (and I wouldn't call myself a
Speilberg admirer; at least 75% of the time), but even with its flaws
I wouldn't criticize it for that reason. That's like saying 'Jaws' is
a failure because we don't get any backstory on what's motivating the
shark.
Four *really* bad films by world-class filmmakers:
Buddy, Buddy (Billy Wilder; 1981)
Conversation Piece (Luchino Visconti; 1974)
The Blue Bird (George Cukor; 1976)
A King in New York (Charles Chaplin; 1957)
Tom Sutpen |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Richard Schultz
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
In article <g5hgeb$slo$1@registered.motzarella.org>, Michael <michaelwynn2@gmail.com> wrote:
: I am not saying that the rest of Speilberg's stuff isn't excellent, mind you.
That his name is "Spielberg" is a minor point -- more significant, I think,
is the common opinion around here that the rest of his stuff is in fact
not excellent. (_Jaws_ is just about the only Spielberg movie that gets
nearly unanimous praise around here.)
-----
Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"French bread makes very good skis" |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Magnus, Robot Fighter
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:50:21 +0200, "Michael" <michaelwynn2@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they are
are. Mean Streets had no purpose. It was a bunch of guys going around doing
nothing. The Duel was a chase film like The Hitchhiker without any
interesting character development. And Bad Taste, well, that really lived up
to it's title. Then of course, these guys make some excellent movies later
on. That they would do so was not obvious to me at the time. The only
exception I can think of
|
exception to what? Are you saying the only director you can think of
that made great films right out of the gate is Hitchcock???
| Quote: | , is Hitchcock, who seems to have started out with a
bang in silent movies and just kept going, although he later on occasionally
made a turkey or two as well.
Mike
|
Duel is great. I almost think this is a troll. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Michael
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
Hi, well, I guess Hitchcock started so early that he could learn as the
industry evolved. (his turkey started coming when he turned to his insane
10-minute shoot ideas etc) I do not share your evaluation of The Duel,
however. I did not like it at all. That's all. I am not saying that the rest
of Speilberg's stuff isn't excellent, mind you. I just thought that
particular film was extremely boring. We didn't learn anything about the bad
guy. In The Hitcher, which is something like that film we at least have
Rutgher Hauer playing the bad guy.
"Magnus, Robot Fighter" <Me@Key.com> skrev i melding
news:1ego74hvf40fg6gb8r3rdj66ii1a9a235m@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:50:21 +0200, "Michael" <michaelwynn2@gmail.com
wrote:
I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they
are
are. Mean Streets had no purpose. It was a bunch of guys going around
doing
nothing. The Duel was a chase film like The Hitchhiker without any
interesting character development. And Bad Taste, well, that really lived
up
to it's title. Then of course, these guys make some excellent movies later
on. That they would do so was not obvious to me at the time. The only
exception I can think of
exception to what? Are you saying the only director you can think of
that made great films right out of the gate is Hitchcock???
, is Hitchcock, who seems to have started out with a
bang in silent movies and just kept going, although he later on
occasionally
made a turkey or two as well.
Mike
Duel is great. I almost think this is a troll. |
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Richard Schultz
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
In article <g5i1ub$osb$1@registered.motzarella.org>, Michael <michaelwynn2@gmail.com> wrote:
: Hello, I guess it's difficult to critisise [sic] such famous directors, as
: even their minor work will have a big following.
That's never stopped me from giving my opinion of _Schindler's List_.
-----
Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
tomcervo
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
On Jul 15, 8:06�am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:50:21 +0200, "Michael" <michaelwy...@gmail.com
wrote:
I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they are
are.
I've seen people say that when they saw _The Duel_, they had no idea
Speilberg would turn out to be a crappy director. �
|
It's not a GREAT film, just a very promising one. And that's nearly
all it's been since then, promises and nothing more. Watching "Jaws"
now, you don't just see the machinery, you now hear it creak. Watching
Robert Shaw doing everything but tap dance to try and bring some life
into it is about the only thing left. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Jim Beaver
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
"Michael" <michaelwynn2@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g5hdrk$e2u$1@registered.motzarella.org...
| Quote: | I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they are
are. Mean Streets had no purpose. It was a bunch of guys going around doing
nothing. The Duel was a chase film like The Hitchhiker without any
interesting character development. And Bad Taste, well, that really lived
up to it's title. Then of course, these guys make some excellent movies
later on. That they would do so was not obvious to me at the time. The
only exception I can think of, is Hitchcock, who seems to have started out
with a bang in silent movies and just kept going, although he later on
occasionally made a turkey or two as well.
Mike
|
Mike, there's no dishonor in being alone, but I'm afraid you're going to be
pretty lonely in your assessment of MEAN STREETS and DUEL (there's no THE in
the title). I can't speak for BAD TASTE, never having seen it. But I
believe (along with a humongous amount of other people) that MEAN STREETS is
one of the great films of the Seventies. I've seen it a dozen times, I bet,
and never fail to thrill at the expertise of everyone involved.
DUEL was a TV movie, with the restraints inherent in that sort of film. But
I think you'll find that critics, viewers, and film-industry leaders were
pretty close to unanimous in their praise of the movie, and the enormous
positive response it got is largely responsible for Spielberg getting to do
the kinds of theatrical movies he later made. Without the extremely strong
response to DUEL, there may well have been no SUGARLAND EXPRESS or JAWS. I
like it a lot.
I daresay DUEL will be written about and assessed and reassessed long after
no one remembers there ever was a movie called THE HITCHER (not HITCHHIKER).
I'm unfamiliar with your posts and am guessing that you're relatively new
here, since I don't remember reading much from you before now. May I ask a
little about you? Where you live, how old you are, that sort of stuff.
I hope after a few years you'll give MEAN STREETS in particular a second
shot. It's a landmark film in many fine people's estimation, and if you
ever come to share that feeling, I think you'll be very glad you gave it
another try.
Jim Beaver |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
calvin
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
On Jul 15, 9:16 am, tomcervo <tomce...@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | It's not a GREAT film, just a very promising one. And that's nearly
all it's been since then, promises and nothing more. Watching "Jaws"
now, you don't just see the machinery, you now hear it creak. Watching
Robert Shaw doing everything but tap dance to try and bring some life
into it is about the only thing left.
|
JAWS never was that good, really. It was the nationwide
shark madness that summer that made it the 'event' movie
of all time; and how good it was didn't matter, as long as it
delivered what we saw in the first half hour. Robert Shaw
being swallowed whole alive remains the most ludicrous
shot in all filmdom, that I can remember. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
On Jul 15, 1:50 am, "Michael" <michaelwy...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they are
are. Mean Streets had no purpose. It was a bunch of guys going around doing
nothing. The Duel was a chase film like The Hitchhiker without any
interesting character development. And Bad Taste, well, that really lived up
to it's title. Then of course, these guys make some excellent movies later
on. That they would do so was not obvious to me at the time. The only
exception I can think of, is Hitchcock, who seems to have started out with a
bang in silent movies and just kept going, although he later on occasionally
made a turkey or two as well.
Mike
|
I'm not going to argue with you about DUEL or BAD TASTE, because I
don't care about them, but just because you don't understand MEAN
STREETS doesn't mean it's not a great movie, it just means that you
don't understand it.
Reminds me of when MEAN STREETS came out and we discussed it in a film
class. It was an evening class so that some of the students were
older, working people, including two middle-class women who simply had
had no contact with the type of people in the film and couldn't
believe they existed. So one Italian guy in the class, about their
age, who had grown up in Little Italy, proceeded to school them in
just how authentic the film was. "I was a mook," he declared. I grew
up in the Bronx, near that borough's own version of Little Italy, so I
recognized a lot of the behavior in the film as authentic.
What's the film about? It's about how one guy (Charlie/Keitel) wants
something better for himself, wants to get out of his ghetto, but his
devotion to someone stuck in that ghetto (Johnny Boy/De Niro), someone
who'll never get out but who truly needs him, keeps him stuck there.
The friendship makes him a better, more compassionate person, but also
keeps him stuck in a bad situation that offers no discernible future.
This is a common theme about urban neighborhoods and sub-cultures
since the dawn of cinema. (MUSKETEERS OF PIG ALLEY, anyone?
REGENERATION?, ANGELS WITH DIRTY FACES?) How about BOYZ N THE HOOD?
Scorsese got out of Little Italy thanks to his love of film and
overwhelming drive to make films. He was lucky in that he didn't have
a Johnny Boy holding him back. But he knew those people and saw how
they were held back. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Okierazorbacker
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
On Jul 15, 12:50 am, "Michael" <michaelwy...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they are
are. Mean Streets had no purpose. It was a bunch of guys going around doing
nothing. The Duel was a chase film like The Hitchhiker without any
interesting character development. And Bad Taste, well, that really lived up
to it's title. Then of course, these guys make some excellent movies later
on. That they would do so was not obvious to me at the time. The only
exception I can think of, is Hitchcock, who seems to have started out with a
bang in silent movies and just kept going, although he later on occasionally
made a turkey or two as well.
|
Thanks Mike, it's nice to have an on-topic post occasionally. Welcome
to ramp-f. Many people who post here regularly are VERY serious about
film, and you've seen that in some of the responses to your post. Me,
I'm just a movie nut and don't have a problem with Spielberg
generally, but artistically he's viewed by most people here as the
cinematic equivalent of the famous "dogs playing poker" black velvet
painting. He gets your attention and is certainly popular, and what
he does is kind of cute and clever, but is not taken seriously by the
film snobs.
Having said that, I love several of his movies, not being a full-
fledged snob myself. "Duel" is one such terrific little picture. Not
every movie has to have interesting character development. I hated
"1941," however; totally worthless. All "great" directors (however
that word applies) have a crappy movie in them. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Michael
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
Hello, I guess it's difficult to critisise such famous directors, as even
their minor work will have a big following. I know that Speilberg himself
(said so in a documentary) thinks that 1941 was his first turkey, but I feel
that Duel is in fact worse. He also did some Columbo episodes, and I think
have seem them. They are great, but resemble any Columbo episodes I guess. I
see that others defended Mean Street also. I am afraid there will be no more
Mean Street watching for me, even if the film is packed with future
celebrities such as Di Niro and Harvey Keitel etc. Of course I am a big fan
of Scorsese's other films, such as The Aviator and that new york historical
piece.
About my Hitchcock point. I meant to say that he had started making films in
the silent period. So, when talkies came along, he was already a good film
maker. The Lodger, Blackmail and Murder are good. Then there's Sabotage,
Secret Agent, 39 Steps and The Man Who Knew too much before he left for the
US. But if we look really closely at his resumee, I am sure we will find
cracks.
Anyway, the point is: these guys (Speilberg, Scorsese and Jackson) are far
from perfect, and if I had to find some to measure them against, it would
have to be some one great such as Hitchcock.
Personal info about me that I dare to publish on the internet: I am 35 with
a degree in English literature. My name is the same as my email. I live in
Europe.
Mike
"Jim Beaver" <jumblejim@prodigy.spam> skrev i melding
news:eaZek.5744$cn7.3758@flpi145.ffdc.sbc.com...
| Quote: |
"Michael" <michaelwynn2@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g5hdrk$e2u$1@registered.motzarella.org...
I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they
are are. Mean Streets had no purpose. It was a bunch of guys going around
doing nothing. The Duel was a chase film like The Hitchhiker without any
interesting character development. And Bad Taste, well, that really lived
up to it's title. Then of course, these guys make some excellent movies
later on. That they would do so was not obvious to me at the time. The
only exception I can think of, is Hitchcock, who seems to have started out
with a bang in silent movies and just kept going, although he later on
occasionally made a turkey or two as well.
Mike
Mike, there's no dishonor in being alone, but I'm afraid you're going to
be pretty lonely in your assessment of MEAN STREETS and DUEL (there's no
THE in the title). I can't speak for BAD TASTE, never having seen it.
But I believe (along with a humongous amount of other people) that MEAN
STREETS is one of the great films of the Seventies. I've seen it a dozen
times, I bet, and never fail to thrill at the expertise of everyone
involved.
DUEL was a TV movie, with the restraints inherent in that sort of film.
But I think you'll find that critics, viewers, and film-industry leaders
were pretty close to unanimous in their praise of the movie, and the
enormous positive response it got is largely responsible for Spielberg
getting to do the kinds of theatrical movies he later made. Without the
extremely strong response to DUEL, there may well have been no SUGARLAND
EXPRESS or JAWS. I like it a lot.
I daresay DUEL will be written about and assessed and reassessed long
after no one remembers there ever was a movie called THE HITCHER (not
HITCHHIKER).
I'm unfamiliar with your posts and am guessing that you're relatively new
here, since I don't remember reading much from you before now. May I ask
a little about you? Where you live, how old you are, that sort of stuff.
I hope after a few years you'll give MEAN STREETS in particular a second
shot. It's a landmark film in many fine people's estimation, and if you
ever come to share that feeling, I think you'll be very glad you gave it
another try.
Jim Beaver
|
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Richard Schultz
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
In article <6e41shF4q7d5U1@mid.individual.net>, Sean O'Hara <seanohara@gmail.com> wrote:
: In the Year of the Earth Rat, the Great and Powerful Richard Schultz
: declared:
:> Except that Hitchcock didn't make "great films right out of the gate" either.
:> I've never seen "The Pleasure Garden" (although I'd like to), but I get
:> the impression that neither it nor "The Mountain Eagle" are works of
:> genius.
: We have no way of judging "The Mountain Eagle" since no prints survive.
I got that impression from Hitchcock's description of it in his interviews
with Truffaut. Plus that secret copy that I have hidden in my underground
bunker located high in the Alps.
-----
Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
The gardener plants an evergreen whilst trampling on a flower. . . |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
Howard Brazee
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Crappy movies by great directors |
|
|
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:50:21 +0200, "Michael" <michaelwynn2@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | I want to mention 3 movies that are absolutely awful: Mean Streets by
Scorcese, The Duel by Speilberg and Bad Taste by Peter Jackson. When I saw
these 3 movies, I had no idea that they would become the geniouses they are
are.
|
I've seen people say that when they saw _The Duel_, they had no idea
Speilberg would turn out to be a crappy director. |
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
|
